Dec 24, 2012

November 1974: Garcia Interview


"Basically, success sucks. And all the other crap that goes along with it. We've unconsciously come to the end of what you can do in America, how far you can succeed. And it's nothing, it's nowhere. It means billions of cops and people busted at your gigs. It means high prices and hassling over extra-musical stuff. It's unnecessary, so we're into busting it. That's all. That's it."

It's not as simple as you might think. Grateful Dead guitarist Jerry Garcia, sitting beside his beautifully inlaid custom guitar in a hotel room across from Paul's Mall (where he will play three nights with organist Merl Saunders) is not at all announcing the death of the Dead. Someone who's been through the entire gamut of late '50s and '60s changes is not about to throw out the baby with the bath water simply because of the hassles that have accompanied mass success.

"We haven't broken up, we've just stopped performing. We're going to keep on recording, and we probably will get back into performing, but we'll wait until we've had a chance to define how we want to do it. Our whole development has been 'going along with the changes.' It's not as though we've plotted to get to a certain level. By just not thinking about it, or not making conscious decisions about what we were doing, we ended up in that place of stadiums, coliseums, large civic-owned and civic-controlled buildings, high ticket prices, enormous overhead, in an effort to fulfill the requirement of whatever the level change was. For example, we changed from playing theaters to large places. The reason we were doing it was because there were more people who wanted to see us than we had time. So the obvious thing was to go to bigger rooms. Okay, so that meant we can only go to bigger rooms if we sound good in them, and that led to our whole p.a. thing, which is expensive. Our rationale was, 'We'll divert the income into developing the resource' because, really, we have a relationship with our audience, and we're only interested in keeping that straight - independent of what the rest of the rock 'n' roll world is doing. But the truth is we've been stuck in this total control situation; our whole lives are controlled by economic circumstances. We're sort of up against the back end of success."

To the uninitiated, it might have seemed that the Grateful Dead became a mass success rather suddenly, about three years ago. According to Garcia, this was not really the case. In fact, instant success might have been easier to deal with. "It's been gradual. We've been really successful ever since the very beginning in terms of not really having to sweat surviving. We haven't done really brilliantly, we haven't scored big. We've only been able to raise the level of survival and also include more and more people in our trip. It's been gradual, but that's the really insidious thing about it. We were prepared mentally for any quick jump, but going slowly into this scene, it becomes almost habitual. Finally we all realized: 'it's gotten to the point where we can no longer really make enough money to keep it working at the present rate. And also there isn't anything for us to get off on. We're removed from the audience, we're removed from what we're doing and it just is a drag."

Did the Dead reach a point of musical stagnation?
"I feel that we have to spend more time developing ourselves musically, which is one of the reasons for taking a break, in addition to trying to solve all these other problems."

Does that mean allowing some of the other band members to catch up with him and Phil Lesh?
"Well, basically that's it, but it's not a reflection on various levels of capacity, because everyone's developing his own musical interests at whatever rate they're capable of. It's not a competitive trip. Everybody in the band is, in my opinion, a pretty good musician. It's not like there are guys who are totally fucked up. To me, just because of default, I've fallen into the role of being the main writer in the band. And I'm not really a writer, I'm not really a composer. I'm not even really a singer, you know? But these are roles, and since the band has needed them I've fallen into them, just like we all have. But it's been on me to be the guy who's developing the material. And frankly, I'm tired of my own writing, I'm bored with it. Since it's sort of an artificial situation, I'm not an inspired writer. It represents work. I would rather let it happen, in terms of my own creativity, without the pressure of having to deliver a certain amount of material."

The band's lack of musical growth and Garcia's forced writing would seem to explain the flaws in the last two Dead albums, but Jerry feels it runs much deeper than that. "I never have been happy with an album. I never have thought, 'Well, this album is really neat.' Making albums is our attempt to reconcile our musical identity with the rest of the world and the musical business. That's been our dovetail. I don't think we've pulled it off too good, mainly because the format is just fucked up. Eighteen minutes to a side is not an accurate representation of what we do."

But do the Dead really have the musical ability to sustain all those long jams?
"That partly has to do with the kind of situation we've had to play in. When we go out on tour we go out for maybe 14 to 21 days, and we're playing every other night in a different room. For every gig there's the same series of adjustments, and it doesn't give us a chance to get past a certain point. The first half we're trying to psych out the room, we're trying to understand what's happening acoustically, which is purely mechanics. By the second half we're starting to develop a sound in the room, and that's the first step towards getting off into decent improvisation, which is where you can hear everybody clearly and any new idea has potential weight.
"My fantasy is eventually for us to build a permanent place to perform in that would be like a whole theater. It would be small and tasty and it would have a permanent set-up."

Since the band has always been headquartered in the Bay Area, I wondered whether such a set-up would not make it difficult for the Dead's East Coast fans to hear them.
"Well, we're working on how to deal with that. The video thing is a possibility, and there's also the possibility of having another house on this coast. We would play a run of about a month and really develop an advantage acoustically in a room. The thing that happens when we play in a place more than one night is that it gets subtler and more articulate, and that's the kind of thing that lets you go into new realms. When we went to Europe this last time we got into some new directions in improvisation which have been the opening of new, fertile ground. But even so, it would be too easy for us to keep on doing what we've been doing. We've got this large scene, and everybody's developed this neurotic attachment to the Grateful Dead, just because that's our baby. On the other hand, it's only an invention."

The Grateful Dead are the only rock group that own their own record companies. They are involved in every aspect of the business - producing, pressing, distribution and publicity - and a host of peripheral businesses have sprung up around that one initial idea. But various figures in the music industry have predicted the venture will cause nothing but headaches for the Dead, and will eventually fail. Garcia claims he doesn't see it in those terms.

"We've never really tried to be successful, but we have in spite of that. It's just been able to support itself, keep its own scene going. And we've been able to pool our energy so we're getting more of it. Our record companies are doing okay, but we don't have a huge amount of output. It's all smaller now, because we've cut everything back to get tight focus. We sell as many copies, and the amount of improvement over how much we actually make from the records is amazing, compared to what we were making with Warner Brothers. And we own the company, so we can do it however we want.

"These are all things that are weird for other reasons. The making of records is an amazing bummer. It's a sweatshop situation, one of the worst. It turns out to be this horrible scene - you wouldn't want to support it if you understood how it works. In a pressing plant there will be a dozen people in a poorly ventilated, miserable place with hot vinyl fumes - the most monotonous, mindless kind of work and it's an awful situation in which to work. I really object to it. Vinyl chloride is poisonous, it's a carcinogen."

Shouldn't he stop making records, then?
"We're trying to finance the development of holographically storing audio information and avoiding discs and all the waste of petroleum-based products. And storing all of the Grateful Dead's recorded past with none of the kind of things that you have with grooves - no wear, no surface noise, because it would be a light-scanning thing. Consequently it would be pretty hip ecologically. One of the things that's really disgusting about the whole music business, and it's disappointing for someone like me, is that there isn't any effort on the part of the music business as a whole to develop this thing. They don't care. They want to make the profit and thats it. I mean, that's America, that's just the way America is. You can't really do anything about it. You can't change people's heads. We used to try to do that, but it's turned out to be easier for us to get together as much stuff as we can do and focus it in new directions."

So Jerry Garcia has begun a period of experimentation, "woodshedding" and playing with small groups in small venues. However, this isn't the first tour he's made independent of the Grateful Dead. In the last three years he's performed with a bluegrass group, Old And In The Way, and with organist Howard Wales, whose place in the Matrix (a Marin County, California club) jam sessions Merl Saunders now occupies. Both tours encountered the same two problems: the bands, quasi-bluegrass and quasi-jazz, were not in the same league with aggregations who devoted their full-time musical energies to those particular genres; and there was a major discrepancy between the expectations of the audience (who came to see Garcia) and Jerry himself, who intended to remain in the background.

When Garcia and Wales played at Symphony Hall almost three years ago, they were, at least to my ears, blown off the stage by the warmup act, the fledgling Mahavishnu Orchestra. Garcia didn't quite hear it that way.
"I don't really like Mahavishnu. I don't like John McLaughlin's playing. It's too stiff. Technically, I admire it - he can do things that are difficult to do, his execution is remarkable. But the way it ends up sounding is nervous and agitated rather than energetic. And also I like music that has more beauty to it and more soulfulness. You know, I'm not a really competitive dude, and I dug it for what it was. But listening to it at home, it's just not the kind of thing that moves me that much. I do think that it's possible to suggest emotion without using devices that are traditionally harmonic. I don't think you have to be restricted to particular tonal things to have that. In other words, it's not a question of cliche, it's whether the attitude of the playing is soulful. There's no other word to describe it. It's possible for a player to play modern and to also move you.

"Also, I didn't really go on the road that time to play. The thing was really misrepresented. I just wanted to get Howard out playing, and his band had a nice thing going on which really didn't have much to do with me. I was just there fucking around."

What is he doing on this latest tour to prevent such false expectations?
"I don't even try to prevent it. This time I'm prepared to accept that role, if that's what it is. It could be a limitation if I wanted to accept it that way, but I just try to live out my life as a normal musician in spite of all that stuff. And I'm pretty lucky, because I have a lot of friends who are players. The fact of being a celebrity is sometimes groovy and sometimes it's a bummer, but it hasn't gotten in the way so far, and I'm just not into it. I don't want to be that way. I just want to play."

For those who wonder what the future holds in the way of Grateful Dead recordings, let me mention just a few of the upcoming projects. Garcia himself is scheduled to go into the studio for a solo album in January (when apprised of this by manager Ron Rakow, Garcia emitted a disbelieving moan). Also on the agenda are albums by Bob Weir, Robert Hunter, Keith and Donna Godcheaux, Old And In The Way, and a four-disc recording of the Grateful Dead live. Breaking up is hard to do.

(by Peter Herbst, from the "Boston After Dark" section, Boston Phoenix, November 19 1974)


  1. This is not a well-known interview, but it's a good one.

    I like how the interviewer kept in the background & let Garcia do all the talking. But note how, when Herbst does make a comment, he often sounds skeptical - for instance, asking if the rest of the band are "catching up" with Garcia & Lesh, asking if they're stagnating, asking if the Dead "really have the musical ability to sustain all those long jams," commenting that Garcia's sidegroups can't compete with "real" bluegrass & jazz bands, etc. In short, probably not a fan but pretty astute.

    For me, it's interesting to see some things mentioned that were also brought up in other interviews - like holographic records, the poor conditions in record-pressing plants, the difficulty of fitting the Dead onto 18 minutes an LP side, adjusting to different rooms when playing, etc.
    I recommend the Rolling Stone article "A New Life for the Dead" (November 1973), reprinted in their Garcia book, as a kind of preface for this interview, since there a year earlier, Garcia & others also mused about the troubles of becoming more successful & having to play bigger places.

    Garcia's perception of things isn't always the same "truth" we'd perceive - for instance, it's interesting to hear how much he dislikes writing songs & feels it's boring work forced upon him by the rest of the band; but the songs he'd written in the past few years would seem to bely his comment, "I'm not really a writer."

    And he also stated in other places that playing in a new hall each night kept the band from "getting past a certain point...into decent improvisation," and they play better when they stay in one place for a long run. I'm not sure that's borne out by the tapes, though I'm sure HE felt more comfortable staying in one place for a while.

    As for the band projects mentioned at the end - several of them (Hunter, Godchaux, OAITW) did get released as predicted. (Lagin's Seastones album, also on the agenda, is not mentioned.) Weir & Garcia ended up, I think, getting sucked into Blues for Allah sessions - Garcia ended up not recording Reflections til later in '75, after Allah was finished. (And Weir didn't record again til the Kingfish album in '76.)
    Note how un-thrilled Garcia seems to be about recording a solo album! (He'd recorded Compliments back in February '74.)

    Of most interest is the mention of the "four-disc recording of the Grateful Dead live." Presumably this was to be from the recordings of the October Winterland run. But the Dead were not too happy with the tapes (many recording problems), and they ended up sitting on them til it got winnowed down to a two-disc release in '76.

    1. The interviewer pushes a bit, which may have been interesting to Garcia. Hard to say. I note that the interviewer leaves Kruetzmann out of the circle of musicianship that he includes Garcia and Lesh in. Pretty lame move, as Kruetzmann is one of the better major rock drummers that emerged in the late 60s/early 70s.

  2. The holographic-audio thing was apparently one of Ron Rakow's hoaxes.
    Garcia seems to take it seriously though (he wasn't in the habit of putting on interviewers) - however sensible he seems, quite often Garcia fell prey to any wild-sounding far-out ideas he came across. For instance, one at random:
    And admittedly, after listening to Bear's sonic ideas for years, the notion of holographic audio storage must have sounded quite sensible!

    Anyway, I thought I'd add a comment I made on the Archive forum:

    Overall, it's clear that the main reason for the layoff is not so much musical, but the burden of playing stadiums & lugging around the Wall of Sound, and feeling locked in an economic wheel that was going nowhere & making the shows more unpleasant.
    The interviewer sounds rather hostile to the Dead, so it's he, not Garcia, who's saying that the Dead have been stagnating and lacking in musical growth & musicianship... (One of Garcia's habits is that he'd rarely contradict an interviewer.)
    Garcia merely points out that he feels the bandmembers should "spend more time developing ourselves musically, which is one of the reasons for taking a break," so that could feed into the band's music.
    Blues for Allah was a direct result of that - having the band come up with new material in the studio, rather than having Garcia bring in a bunch of songs as they'd been doing (and Garcia is rather sick of).

    What really struck me was when he says, "When we went to Europe this last time we got into some new directions in improvisation which have been the opening of new, fertile ground." He specifically links that to, "when we play in a place more than one night, it gets subtler and more articulate, and that's the kind of thing that lets you go into new realms."
    Notice - he's talking about Europe '74! Not a tour acclaimed for its groundbreaking jams.
    I believe he has to be thinking of the jams with Ned Lagin on 9/11 and 9/21 (the 3rd and 2nd nights at those theaters). Those did open the ground for similar jams at Winterland on 10/16 and 10/18.
    So this is a very rare example of a bandmember reflecting on the musical highpoints of a particular tour, right after the fact, plus we get to see the seeds of the thinking that led to their next album.

  3. Peter Simon's spring 1975 interview with Garcia has some of the same observations on the hiatus, with a little more reflective distance a few months down the road:

    Q: What was the reason you decided not to play live anymore?
    JG: There's really a lot of reasons for it. There are kind of two levels, or maybe three levels of reasons. One of them has to do with just the economics of moving around the amount of stuff we had - the amount of money that we would make at the gigs basically wasn't able to pay for moving us around and being able to develop everything and also to pay everybody - we had a huge organization with a colossal overhead on a weekly basis. And so past a certain point, we were really working to keep the thing going, rather than working to improve it or working because it was joyful.
    And that brings up the next level, is that we're interested in doing stuff that's joyful or that's fun, you know, but then how do we reconcile that with economic survival? You know, how can we work and have a good time and also pay the bills? We don't have that together, we don't understand how to do that so far - and what we were doing was not it.
    And also the thing of always playing large venues and feeling that remoteness and feeling as though we're creating an unpleasant situation for the audience to come into, which is not what we want to do, and we don't want people to be busted at our concerts, we don't want them to be uncomfortable or any of those things, and that's been more the standard way they've been.
    Plus, it's basically sort of dehumanizing to travel the way you have to travel in a rock & roll band - the quality of life on the road and everything is pretty slim.
    But mostly, it has to do with economics - it also has to do with the thing of we've been doing it for ten years, we haven't spent any time away from it. That's a long time to do anything without really getting away from it for a while. So we just decided to stop it before it overwhelmed us, before it got to be really ridiculous, and try to consciously see what the next step is for us, what the thing for us to do is. We don't want to go into the success cul-de-sac, you know, we don't like that place... And it's not possible for us to really do something that would be totally altruistic like going and playing free everywhere, you know - if it were possible for us to do that. Really, we need a subsidy is what we need, the government should subsidize us - we should be like a national resource...
    And just the thing of trying to fit in responsible consciousnesses with what's happening in the world, and feeling that it's really as much our responsibility as anything to create the right situation for what we're doing to be in, just on any level - that all is what it has to do with.
    Q: Was it a hard decision to come to, like did you not want to admit it, or was it so painfully obvious that it was a relief?
    JG: It wasn't painfully obvious, no, because there was a lot of different factions - there's always factions that want to keep on doing it because - well, because how am I going to make a living, you know, or whatever...everybody has different reasons for wanting to do it or wanting to not do it or whatever. But it was time, that's all, it was just the time to stop.

    1. Q: ...Do you see getting back on the stage again eventually, and if so, in a different format?
      JG: I can see getting back on the stage eventually, the format is part of what we're trying to determine. One possible fantasy that we've thought the idea of eventually building a place that would be like a permanent performance place, that's designed around us and designed around our specific ideas.
      Q: People would have to come to you.
      JG: Yeah, right - at least for like two months of the year. Because in terms of our music getting finer & finer, it gets finer & finer if we play in the same room, if we keep playing in the same room we really understand it, and so the music gets really articulate, which is one of the directions it needs to go in - to be more clearly stated and more - greater subtlety and greater nuance... And that has to do with understanding a room really well, and you can do that if you're playing it really often. So that's one possibility, and that would also be a facility for recording, and videotaping, or filming, or whatever, in the event that the idea of a canned concert works... But that would be one possible approach; it would also let us live comparatively normal lives - we wouldn't have to tour. And then if we were going to tour, we could do it more selectively, certain times of the year or whatever. That all has to be defined, but that's one possible fantasy.
      Q: That's a nice idea.
      JG: Yeah, it would work - it would be good for the music... It's a good idea because it allows the music to develop.